Curse

Carinae · Apr 29, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

I am deeply upset with this change.

It feels outright vindictive, almost as if it was added by soomeone who doesn't play MM, at best, or someone who doesn't like MMs, at worst. It's just too harsh.

Being a true MM was an art. There was skill in every aspect of Mastering, for real MMs. Knowing how to aggro targets, how to focus fire, how to screen attackers off on your babies, how to keep them healed, which targets to take first, how to use BotM in combat to buy time when melee attackers were going after the fiends, how to dump a lot of healing into your army without sacrificing yourself too low, or to death.

It was an Art. It was fun. And it was a lot of work.

The limit to the number of minions you could support was entirely based on the skill of the Minion Master and his determination in holding the army together. I could routinely maintain 40-50 minions, and on really good days peaked over 80.

I spent a great deal of time trying different combinations and techniques, running numbers, debating different skill and secondary combinations here in the forums. There was a significant sense of personal achievement and pride in running my build well, in being the backbone of the party. It meant everyone depended on you. There was pressure on you to perform well, to neither let your team down nor yourself.

Did I have lazy days where I just slammed piles of minion into mobs and just let things unfold? Of course. But I could also step it up when things went wrong and pull off some amazing saves.

When I was in an instance, I was constantly supporting my army. There wasn't even time to chat with the rest of the team. People telling jokes and stories, and basically, I had to forego the socialization during combat to be able to do what I did. I'd read, laugh and keep going. The team understood.

Probably, most people reading this don't understand what I'm talking about. Most will blow it off as another thread complaining about the change. But a few will understand, even fewer will really understand.

I have played Carinae as my main character for over a year now. A full time RP necro. I can put in 2-4 hours a day, more on weekends. So she is a huge investment in time, effort and energy. By the end of the day I hope to have my "Tyrian Grand-Master Cartographer" title, as well as "Protector of Tyria".

That's why this change causes so much consternation. It comes more than a year into the game's release and completely alters the concept of being a Minion Master. It's poor planning on Anets part to make such a fundamental change to a PvE core character at so late stage in the game's life. And it's definately poor for Community Relations, as its guaranteed to upset many players.

I have to look at the timing of this change, coming with the introduction of Factions, as being primarily tied to the new 12v12 PvP format. Anet has had over a year to make changes to Minion Mastery has, until now, made only minor adjustments. But now Minion Masters were going to make their official introduction into PvP play.

If it was a PvE balance issue, why not make it earlier? Why was it included in the pre-Factions update, especially as the only major nerf? I've been raising 80 minions armies since September, and I know others have done more before that.

There were so many was to change the dynamic of being a MM, besides a 10 minion limit and destroying Verata's Sacrifice. Increase the sacrifices, increase the energy, add counter-measures to PvE mobs, or mobs without corpses, if PvE was the reason.

If it was really necessary to set a hard upper limit on the number of minions, then set one with some flexibility to maintain momentum. Say, 2 minions per level of Death magic, for a max of 32 minions. Note that the change to Blood of the Master, essentially sets a limit of 45 minions. Increasing the sacrifice to 5% plus 3% per minion would achieve a limit of 32.

Unchecked, you'd be a powerful presence, but not the lawnmower you were at 80. Combine that with an adjustment to Verata's and/or BotM and Anet could have set a comfortable balance between raising and maintaining. Essentially make to harded to maintain a large army but not impossible for skilled players. They could also have given us better minioon AI or minion selecting, or buffed other skills to push us in different directions.

But what they did was destroy the momentum of minion army builds. That's specifically what the change to VS and the minion limit affect. To prevent you from gaining momentum from mob to mob.

The changes they made aren't the end of Minion Masters. I went out and cleared The Falls yesterday while testing new possibilities. What was once the most difficult part of being a MM, the startup phase, where you raise your initial force, is now the Modus Operandi. You are now constantly in startup mode due to losses from degen and combat.

Verata's Sacrifice is now so restricted as be be useless. It used to extend minion life somewhat so that the previous batch had decent capability remaining when you engaged the next mob.

That whole play style is deeply, deeply affected by the changes, although some adaptations may be possible as well as converting to Minion Bombing or other variations. We're not dead, but we took a critical hit.

I just wanted to write this to explain the angst felt by myself and others concerning the recent changes. A change of this magnitude shouldn't come this late in the games. It's bad PR, bad planning and just a poor attempt at balance. Balance does not mean equality across the classes. It just takes the life out of playing when they rip your whole play-style away like this.

I know no one has one iota of sympathy, particularly from the Elementalist community, who were replaced largely by MMs due to an earlier play-style gank, and whom has still not been buffed to compensate for the change. I'm sure this will generate flames and attacks, but I just needed to say it.

We're not dead, we'll adapt, change and survive. But it's an awful patch. It's an axe, not a balance. And although I'm sure they won't, it would go a long way if Anet were to, at least somewhat, re-address the change.

Carinae

Silent Elvin Ranger · Apr 29, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

As a MM myself i know what you mean. They have nerfed something that wasn't meant to be nerfed. They shouldn't nerf something that was already hard enough to control/learn/master in the first place. I have not heard to much about this nerf before, but i think they have gone too far. The thing MMs provide to the team was substantial in some farm builds, and in the mission areas of most tension. I agree being an MM is an art, but now, with this incredible, brutal and not-need beating with a nerf stick, I think you will see less and less MMs/groups wanting MM as a powerful force. Being an MM before the nerf meant complete focus, timing and understanding of how to raise, control and maintain your own, powerfull army. I think, the new nerfs have destroyed necros in GW. We'll be back,as you said. Maybe new skills will bring new opportunities and this very undiserved nerf, MM will be part of the past. I will continue on and strive to make strong armies and find a way to come back from this nerf. The thought of nerfing something that was already hard to do in the first place is very...GAY!

I think they have been trying to nerf oro green farming more and more (even after green droprate nerf) by damaging the ever-so-needed power house of the party. Especially after ppl still farmed fter the droprate nerf.

New builds will come to help MM out. The art of this build will cut the select few who use MMs as a main source of power. MM is a dying trait. We have to revive it.

Elvin

WiLdFiRe111 · Apr 29, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

I couldn't agree more. I originally created my Necro (One of my two characters), I went through all the missions, ascended her, got both her 15 point attribute quests and went and bought/capped all her Minion Master skills. It was SO worth it. I could tear across the landscape, shooting everything with my 15-20 fiends, then guess what happened two days later. TWO DAYS! Needless to say, now I'm not in a good mood. It's not MMing that needed a nerf, it's Spiteful Spirit. I've been using this instead, and it's definitely more powerful, especially when it's echoed onto other enemies. I mean, have you seen a Monk/MM team soloing UW? I think not.

Silent Elvin Ranger · Apr 29, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

After checking out what other ppl thought, I came up with an idea. I osted a thread to help us out and revive the MM with a new build. Check it out and add your ideas....maybe we can get MMs accross GW back on there feet.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3020623

LET MM LIVE ON!

Elvin

Ellena · Apr 29, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I've always rpeferred spiteful spirit to minionmancing ( though I've done plenty of both), but I totally agree that the nerf was just too much. A minro balancign down might have been appropriate, but wha theyv'e done is jsut too much.

btw, it was he aoe nerf that got me to play a necro. :>

cheetum · Apr 29, 2006, 03:50 AM // 03:50

i dont think its PVP they are trying to nerf but the 80 minion armies u just described. there is no way it should be possible for a necro to maintain and heal that many creatures, even a monk cant touch that. now add vampiric minions and you can see the problem...

i believe that the best way to "limit" minion armies is to directly relate the amount of health sacrificed with the number of minions u control. this is for both veratas and BotM. to me this makes complete sense that you would have to sacrifice more health to heal more minions or less health to heal less minions.

an example, veratas will give your army 10 health regen for 15 seconds, 15 second recharge, but it costs 2% per minion with a 15% minimum.

BoTM could be 1% per minion with a 10% minimum.

i think this is a good compromise. 10 minions is easy to maintain but beyond that it will start to get more and more risky. decent size armies (20-30 minions) are possible but will require some creative builds from MMs to maintain, and have some big weaknesses especially in PVP.

Thallandor · Apr 29, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

@Carinae i know exactly how you feel about the change i cant find better words to express how i feel about them.

When i though of the necro class, it always occur to me as the fun class to play due to the builds we can use to contribute to the overall favor of the game other than the common hack and slash.

Pure sadness and dismay

Malachi The Fallen · Apr 29, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

/agreed and signed

Removing the necromancer's ability to raise minion armies (i'm not saying is like... removing a monk's ability to heal, or a warriors ability to fight with a sword.

It's been something, by what the profession was defined.

Corinthian · Apr 29, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Minions were obviously overpowered. They chewed down high level mobs like they weren't even there. Anet doesn't just destroy a build for no reason. And you still see some MM's out there, with reasonable amount of minions... 10-20.

Malachi The Fallen · Apr 29, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

And you still see some MM's out there, with reasonable amount of minions... 10-20.

Yeah, 10-20... You know you really could examine the situation before commenting it.

Njall · Apr 29, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Minions were obviously overpowered. They chewed down high level mobs like they weren't even there. Anet doesn't just destroy a build for no reason. And you still see some MM's out there, with reasonable amount of minions... 10-20.

Sure.. now tell me why I should bother with 10 minions. I'm sure I can do more damages using Curses (without spiteful spirit

)

Alleji · Apr 29, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

40 minions? 80? O.o

That's not just impressive, that's CRAZY.

I don't consider myself a pro MM, in fact, I rarely played my necro in MM mode, but I was complimented on more than one occasion for keeping 25-ish minions alive.... a bit off-topic, but do you have any screenshots of you with 40 minions? I'd like to see that.

As for the letter,

/signed

What disturbs me the most is that anet went out and started balancing the game based on Alliance Battles. Why? If anyone tells me that's a serious form of PvP, i'll laugh in their face if I'm feeling nice, and call them a complete noob after that if I'm in a not-so-nice mood. So, why exactly did MMs get an axe based on a completely casual form of PvP? That would be like nerfing Wammos because they're too good in Random Arenas.

If this was a balance issue in PvE, it could be changed by adding specific mobs to hose MMs. A couple fire eles with... um, say +50 AL vs piercing in the middle of sorrow's furnace would stop a MM dead in his tracks.

Rajamic · Apr 29, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

There really was no practical way for them to limit the usefulness of minions without putting in a hard cap. Any attempt to limit the number of minions by making the health sacrifice gets beat by Aura of the Lich (which is in Death Magic to boot!). Putting enemies in to counter them either are worthless necro enemies (using Verata's Aura) or brutally powerful against henchies and wouldn't get the spells off against a big army anyway (AoE spells).

Sure, if you are used to making your entire party obsolete just 4 groups into a zone, what ANet did is going to seem really harsh. But you were making your party obsolete 4 groups into a zone! You don't think that's just a bit overpowered?

Now they just need to nerf Barrage/Pet, and we might start getting out of this cookie-cutter overpowered crap.

Ka RaTae · Apr 30, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheetum

i dont think its PVP they are trying to nerf but the 80 minion armies u just described. there is no way it should be possible for a necro to maintain and heal that many creatures, even a monk cant touch that. now add vampiric minions and you can see the problem...

i believe that the best way to "limit" minion armies is to directly relate the amount of health sacrificed with the number of minions u control. this is for both veratas and BotM. to me this makes complete sense that you would have to sacrifice more health to heal more minions or less health to heal less minions.

an example, veratas will give your army 10 health regen for 15 seconds, 15 second recharge, but it costs 2% per minion with a 15% minimum.

BoTM could be 1% per minion with a 10% minimum.

i think this is a good compromise. 10 minions is easy to maintain but beyond that it will start to get more and more risky. decent size armies (20-30 minions) are possible but will require some creative builds from MMs to maintain, and have some big weaknesses especially in PVP.

So because ANET decided to add some un-asked for vampric minions they should just rework the way MM's work from the ground up? Dang...maybe they should also redo the whole Monk class cause they now have a spamable smite attack.

In my mind this was done for 2 reasons. 12v12, and to make PVE Tombs and Orozar Farming harder. 12v12 would have taken care of itself....people would have adapted to it. As far as the PVE stuff goes....why don't they just plan better in advance. All they had to do was have V Aura scattered through out. But they didn't...simalar to the problem they had in UW with Monks being able to solo so much so easy. Poor planning all over the place. What's even worse then the poor planning is the stupid nerfs they come up with instead of just adjusting the monster skills in a PVE area. Heck they have adjusted UW....but they even did a piss poor job of that. The dying nightmares are the worst fix ever. I mean come on...all you need to do is aggro the first 3 AAtaxe's. Kill them then move up the stairs to trigger the nightmares, then kill them and then drive on with no worries.

Plain and simple ANET needs to get there heads out of their backsides and plan skills in PvE areas better. Especilly now that you can by any skill you have unlocked at any trainer. How does say Rotting Flesh or Edge(The most overpowered PvP skill ever) effect the game when you have it at level 3. It makes the game dam easy that's how it effects it.

If ANET wants to work on some real problems with this game....AND WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE TONS....fix things like the piss poor targeting system. Better yet fix the fact that this game has absolutely the worst pathfinding in any game I have ever played!!!

In short...ANET needs to stop taking away what people actually find fun in this game, and stop trying to make everything have the perfect balance. Balance in a game that has 8 classes and both PvE and PvP will never ever happen.

Fluffyx · Apr 30, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

I've been playing a MM way before it was popularized in farming and pvp. I think this cap on minions is just plain unfair. So basically they're making the worst MM able to play with the best of us. This goes against the point of the game that the player and his skills determine the outcome of a battle. Like Carinae said I dont think its fair to put us MMs that have played and worked the build to an art on par with people who dont know what they're doing. Killing the build just to please newer players is just sad.

DiceX · Apr 30, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Guys...it was broken.
Get over it.

Saying it took some sort of "skill" does not mean it did.
It does not make it any less broken.
Find another skill to exploit.

Evilsod · Apr 30, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

1 thing i would like to find out, you have a max limit of 10 minions. So what would happen if you used Veratis Aura with another MM around with 10 minutes also? Would you end up with 20 or would the weakest 10 just 'die'.

If they keep this absolutely pathetic cap of 10 minions they had best remove the 2 Anti-MM skills too. VS is totally ruined so you can't keep anything alive as it is, when the 'Seed of Corruption' in FoW used Veratis Gaze it would most likely take away possibly 1/30-50th of your army. Now it takes away 1/10th of it, if they ruin the rest of the MM build they need to balance out the Anti-MM skills too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

In short...ANET needs to stop taking away what people actually find fun in this game, and stop trying to make everything have the perfect balance. Balance in a game that has 8 classes and both PvE and PvP will never ever happen.

Well said, i can't think of a single thing they have actually got right when it came to balancing. The ele they completely screwed up in both PvE and PvP, smiting skills are mostly a waste of energy and now they're screwing up the most entertaining build on the game and haven't even given a reason for it. They removed the book trick which was bound to get minions killed a bit more often when some break agro from the warrior, now they limit the number of minions. If they don't remove the limit of 1 from Flesh Golems they're gonna have another useless skill on there hands, specially with the current nerfing situation.

Silent Elvin Ranger · Apr 30, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

While i agree with the statements about Anet and there bad planning, i can't help but think were somewhat responsible. I mean, they can't sit there for hours and hours before a game is released to figure out some skill combonations. That would be way too much. Even if they did, many of us would still be able to make something overpowering. They could test skill combos for factions skills until there fingers turn black *stares at fingers*, and i guaruntee we would still be able to exploit a overpowering combonation. With so many personalities, thoughts, opinions and ideas around any combonation of thoughts opinions and such could be combined to make monsteruos builds. What im saying is, they can plan skills all they want but they cant plan the thoughts of an individual or group of individuals to make, for example, 55 monks and b/p and MM and such.

I also agree that they should improve AI and pathfinding. But because they are too busy nerfing our overpowering builds, they can't fix that either. We are responsible for that too. Sure after reading this u may stop testing ur all tough pvp build or solo farming build, but most will not. Even if u did, every1 on guild wars would not. Im not saying we should stop on our builds, seeing as its great fun to test and a great feeling when ur build works, but because they r focused on keep us happy (and unhappy). A nerf on IWAY may make the balenced groups happy and the IWAY groups unhappy. Because they want to keep us balenced and make every team, build group equel...so that farming and pvp and whatnot is based on skill and experiance and practise....we may not see these AI updates and pathfinding updates we all want/crave.

They may be the creators and operators of the game, but they are just human like us and all there ideas may have to be put on hold until they finish what we have started.

I know it seems like im sticking up for Anet, but in fact, i hate them right now. Because of factions, things i bought (like Dragos flatbow for 30k),then they come out with the 20/20 dragos flatbow and my dragos became worthless. Especially now, as i try to sell it.

Elvin

A Fire Inside · Apr 30, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Well I started an account here just because I am in the same boat you guys are. Now with the nerf I feel no urge to ever use my necro ever again. Because the MM was the fun nest/most skilled build there was. Also when 12v12 was out for that weekend it forced necros to carry skills that I never used before. Like Verata's Gaze and Verata's Aura. To 2 skills up until I played 12v12 had no use for and never saw a use for them. Also there was many times that my army of 20 or so minions where taken down by a team of 4. So I did not find the MM overpowered at all. Also I do not mind the cap of the Golem. I would not want to even face 5 of them so I thought that was fair. But it took 1 day for people to attempt to the MM in 12v12 so its just super crap the 10 is the max even with Animate Bone Minions (max level of 13) yeah they made it cheaper but hey its still just as useless as before. If they are going to cap it cap that one at least at 20. Because I don’t know about any of you id rather have 10 level 18 fiends then 10 level 13 crappers. Think about it I can make 10 level 18 Horrors at the same cost and cast time. And the same amount. AHHH damn you anet for making me never want to play my necro ever again. Sorry I just have to vent about this it just makes me so mad.

All they have to do is make the vamp minions cost 25 and are only level 0-10
Limit 1 Golem. And undo the cap of the others. Bam I think Id be happy with that.

suiraCLAW · Apr 30, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Minions were obviously overpowered. They chewed down high level mobs like they weren't even there. Anet doesn't just destroy a build for no reason. And you still see some MM's out there, with reasonable amount of minions... 10-20.

all professions that should deal dmg can "chew down" high level mobs, what are you talking about? In fact: there are builds that could do this much better then a MM (before update). but this doesn't mean that they all have to be nerfed.

anyway about the letter

/agree
/signed (if you sign anything)

about the 12vs12: every profession could take a mm army solo when they have the right skills, nerfing a build because people don't know to counter it yet is just stupid... (That's why I hope that anet didn't nerf the mm for that)